Living by the Body, Dreaming of Land, and Weaving the Future with Camille A. Saunders

 Welcome my lovelies back to the Connected Pleasure Podcast. I'm Kayla, and today we are going to be talking to someone I met recently and I'm very excited to get to talk to Camille Saunders. We met on Instagram, I believe, and then, uh, Camille came to my sacred feminine singing circle, the second one that Emma and I did, and Camille is also a sex therapist and lots of other things that I will have her jump in and tell you all about.

So welcome Camille, and if you wanna let people know who you're and what you do, that'd be great.

Sure, yeah. So, yeah, I'm Camille a Saunders right now. My like, titles that feel good are like healer. Tarot Enthusiast, professional Witch. That's one that I've added lately. Mm-hmm. I actually changed my Instagram handle to Professional Witch now, so that's been fun.

day through Friday for all of: 2025

Um, so that is very fun to get, to have connection and ritual and reflection with other, um, folks doing that. Yeah. What else? I recently moved onto like more property, starting my real farm life. I just moved last week, so I'm sort of like in big transition, settling in, and that feels very fun and also new and just, yeah, I'm kind of seeing like what comes up there.

Um, I'm kicking off doing like a tarot for transformation course at the end of this month, meeting once a week as a group with folks to deep dive into major arcana archetypes and like transforming ourselves through the tarot. So, um, that's definitely a lot of what I like to do using trio tarot for like intuitively.

Yeah. Checking in with feminine, divine, the universe and thinking about, yeah, using tarot as like. Arche and visual imagery for kind of like creating the future in ourselves that we want and like in the world. So

mm-hmm.

Feels aligned with this podcast.

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Oh, so many things to get into. You have a lot that you juggle, which is really cool, and I want to dive into all of that.

I also forgot to say, uh, pronouns. So mine Are she her, and remind me what your pronouns are. Yeah. She, they, she, they. Okay. Yeah. Um, and can I also ask, I know you always introduce yourself as Camille a Saunders is the, a very important

I. I guess so there's like an aspect of my name that feel like, I like seeing the, a written, my dad actually has always like signed his name.

His middle initial is also a, yeah. Uh, Scott, a Saunders. Um, so there was just something about like seeing, and that's like what my business name is too. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's like funny 'cause I'm like, yeah, my name's Camille. Like, it's not like a very common name. I don't really need the initial in the middle to like differentiate myself from other Camille Saunders.

It, it's not really that. There's just something about Yeah, like seeing it, that there's like a symmetry or, or an alignment. I don't know. It just felt right. Um, great. So that's sort of like Yeah. How I put it, but, okay. I'm not, Camille Saunders is also Okay. Uh,

yeah. I feel I, I like that there's some background to that and that there's a lineage to that.

So yeah. A Saunders it is. Um, so I wanna start out, I've done one interview so far and I think this might be something that I continue in my interviews. To first just define what pleasure means to you. I feel like so many people have different thoughts on pleasure. I've noticed as I've gotten some more interviews booked, some people are a little bit weirded out about talking about pleasure even, you know, as they are somebody that I wanna talk to about it.

Um, 'cause we are sexual professionals that work with people around sex, but not everybody is. And this podcast interweaves sexual pleasure, but it's not necessarily completely all about sexual pleasure. It's kind of pleasure in all forms. So how do you personally define pleasure?

Yeah, I think it's, I think about sort of my experience of it.

Mm-hmm. As the way that I have to talk about it. 'cause that's what I know. But I think for me it's a very like embodied experience, like being present, especially when I think about in a sexual context or even in like friendship situations where I feel like my most authentic self. Mm-hmm. When I'm able to be physically present, I would say I've spent a lot of my life, like living in my head can disassociate super well.

Um, yeah. And so like when I'm able to find pleasure, it is in these spaces where. For me, like swimming outdoors in the summer in the Pacific Northwest is like a very, like, that's like a experience that I think of of like, oh, that's pure pleasure for me. Yeah. Like laying on my back and staring at the clouds and just like floating.

So it's like a very sensory experience I think as someone who's like neurodivergent again, kind of in like the more sexual context like it, I would say like the way I experience pleasure is like often with my eyes closed or like sometimes with like headphones or like earplugs or like, like things that can kind of dampen other sensory aspects so that I can be present.

I think for some people that feels like counterintuitive. Mm-hmm. But for me that has always felt very authentic and like it wasn't until I was able to kind of like embrace. Those aspects of myself that I felt like I was able to experience kind of again, what I would call like pure pleasure. And again, even when I'm like eating or like swimming, like other things where I'm like, oh yeah, that's like pleasure.

Mm-hmm. Um, it is where there's like less distractions, right? Or there's like not a lot of urgency. I'm allowed to move slow and be intentional. Like a lot of those things are wrapped up in pleasure. Mm-hmm. For me. Um, because I think like you're talking about kind of like the news or getting like caught up in things like that, that is where I feel like urgency or that I feel like a lot of society like puts urgency on us.

Capitalism. Definitely. Yeah. Always pushing us to the next season or like buy Christmas stuff now. Right. And like that just always felt like incongruent. But being able to kind of like name that I'd be like, oh yeah. It's like they're not allowing me to like be in, actually it's only the beginning of September and like actually it's still kind of hot for us here.

Yeah. And it's fall and Right. Kids are just going back to school. We're all in transition. Mm-hmm. Like allowing that more like holistic experience mm-hmm. Um, is what pleasure I guess like looks and feels like for me. So I guess that's how I would sort of like personally define it. But I think it can be different for everyone and that's probably part of why it's hard to talk about.

Yeah. Um, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well you had a lot in there. I love talking about, you know, bodily sensations. That you talked about, like eyes close, like being inside of yourself, and then also this idea of presence and slowness. And that's exactly what this podcast is about, is how do we infuse more slowness, softness, being in like the rhythms of earth and understanding that yeah, patriarchy has stripped us from a lot of the ability to feel pleasure and to no pleasure because it's easier for them to control people when people aren't like living in a state of pleasure.

So yeah, you brought a lot to that. That was great. Um, so. We are again, both in the sexual space in terms of what we do for our work and money. Um, but you also, just as I am trying to like bridge that realm with the sacred feminine, you also are a identified witch and are very much into, like you said, tarot and all these other, um, more witchy ways of doing life.

Can you talk a little bit about how that came to be and how you are able to kind of navigate both of those worlds or weave both of those worlds together?

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, it's interesting. I think from a very young age actually, the like sexual educator therapist part of me. I was like very present.

Mm-hmm. Like, that's a thing I kind of knew I was always gonna do. Id actually say the like, witchy part of me, like didn't, didn't kind of like emerge until later. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, they are both sort of like taboo. Like they are a lot of like, oh, we don't talk about that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. So I definitely see that overlap.

I was just recognizing, um, yesterday and doing one of my tarot podcast episodes talking about, uh, I was asking the question of like, how do you explain tarot to people? Um, and one of the things that came up for me is that I feel like tarot and sort of my journey in witchcraft in general is the sort of embracing like the sacred feminine like.

Tarot gets talked about as like, oh, it's future telling. Oh, it's like it's belittled a lot of the time, especially in like pop culture or it's like scary again, which I think like sucks and like, which both fall into that category. It's like either it's like terrifying and the devil, or it's like it's just not real.

So like let's like belittle it, not talk about it kind of thing. Um, yeah, I'm trying to think about sort of like identity and how I don't like the witch part. Again, I kind of like don't really know how it came about. There were parts of me, like, I've always liked crafting or kind of like the witch craft part of things.

Like I like cooking and gardening and a lot of those kind of are like witchy traits. Um, I think I didn't really sort of identify as witch until I was in like an online. Gardening coven called the Dirty Ho coven, um, because we like, think we're funny. And again, right. This is like that bridging of like sex and witchcraft and kind of like humor and like the taboo.

Um, that it wasn't until I found these very, like we all met on Instagram during like the pandemic, like neurodivergent, witches, queer poly. Like just, it wasn't until I found that kind of like community

mm-hmm.

That I was like, oh yeah, like this. Like, which felt very solitary to me at the time. Like time it was a thing I did on my own.

And again, I would like sometimes post a spread on Instagram or like sometimes would talk about it with people, but it wasn't until I kind of like recognized and had like that coven support mm-hmm. Until I was like, oh yeah, like. This is definitely a part of my identity. It's, I feel comfortable like proclaiming and then it's just sort of like blossomed from there.

I would say, yeah, it has just become like more and more of my like top three identities kind of thing. And therapist has actually like, kind of in the last year like moved down some notches. 'cause I like, and even like sex therapists or sex and relationships part feels more accurate. I'm trained as a marriage and family therapist and I'm always kind of like about the name.

Um, so, mm-hmm Like sex and relationships felt very like that is what I do. And kind of again, like in therapy world, always have, my first clients were a couple that had stuff going on with pornography and, um. Infidelity and relationship and like that was my first like experience as a therapist and that's like what I wanted.

Mm-hmm. As well. And so that, again, that always sort of felt true, but the kind of, which part of it has been more recent? And even bringing that into like my professional mm-hmm. World, which is part of why I kind of like moved into this like professional witch mm-hmm. Name, because it started to feel like, oh actually like 90% of what I do is like witchy.

And then there's kind of this like other therapy coach, like supportive healing part that goes into that. Yeah. But it's not like therapist first, which I was for a while, like in grad school and coming outta it. That felt very important. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I know a lot of people would like cringe that we're just talking about names and titles, but I think this is a really important conversation and I actually, I feel like through, if anybody doesn't know astrology, we just went through a full moon lunar eclipse on Sunday, this past Sunday, September 7th.

Um, and I feel like I'm also going through a lot of that. I just this year transition from therapist to coach, but I feel like that's not enough yet, that I'm also kind of dropping the therapist hat and leaning in to coach and even coach is not quite the right word either, that I think. I kind of got the download that this is breaking news and I'm getting the download that I think eventually I want to graduate to priestess.

That that is kind of the road that I wanna go down and, but there's like all this other stuff that I wanna do that I'm trying to infuse into that. And so it's interesting that you have the same thing happening for you where the sacredness and the feminine and the witchy part is kind of more dominant than therapist or, you know, I guess, I don't know.

I wanna ask you about that too, of like, why do you think that is? What is it about therapy that kind of is not sitting well with you anymore in terms of how you wanna identify?

Yeah, I think there's like very clear that there's like the system part of it. Yeah. There's like the healthcare system, the like governmental licensure system, like that feels very rigid Yeah.

In therapy. And I just in a lot of ways feel like that rigidity is just like not of this era.

Yeah.

Um, and so sitting in that space and feeling like restricted by it for a long time always kind of felt uncomfortable, but it sort of, I was finally able to kind of like push out of it

more. Yeah.

I think the other part I sort of recognize is that like, going through school is a very like, again, like systematic.

Masculine or patriarchal experience. Yeah. And I feel like the further I get away from that, the more I kind of like find what actually works for me, which is this much more like sacred, feminine, somatic mm-hmm. Intuitive, artistic, creative, healing side of things, which is really how I view like the title of witch.

It's sort of that like you've been pushed to the outskirts mm-hmm. Because you're so like revolutionary mm-hmm. That like the system like can't, like, doesn't really know what to do with you. Yeah. Um, and there's like a part of that that I think I felt that, but it felt bad at first. Like, it felt like I'm always fighting to like get back in and now I'm like, nah, I'm good.

Like. I'll just be in the woods. Like, I'll be on the outskirts and like, that's fine. And I just will only write sort of like the people that come to me and the people that I am drawn to are also in the outskirts. Like I know with witches traditionally, it was like literally the outskirts.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and yeah, of course like moving to the woods.

I like feel that sort of like viscerally Yeah. Of like, yeah, there are like, there's forest. I like the transition zone of forest to meadow or prairie like is like, there's like a danger to it. And it's just kind of interesting to like honor that. I think. Uh, we had coyotes on our property last week, just like a pack of five coyotes, like hanging out all day and I was like, oh, hello.

Like, this feels so. Yeah. Wild. Mm-hmm. Um, that feels important and like where I'm interested in like exploring mm-hmm. That kind of, again, more like shadow and being okay with

that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's two things here that I wanna highlight. So one, if you are somebody that is in like the witchy sacred feminine world, so many of us have this dream of living on land and like creating community created, creating regenerative, um, like agriculture and farming.

I mean, I have my own theories, but I'm curious for you, and you don't have to have the right answer, but just like. One, have you noticed that? And two, why do you think that is? Why do you think that so many of us in this space have this same dream and goal right now?

Yeah. I, yeah. I don't know if I, yeah, I haven't really thought about why it is.

I think it feels very, like I'm only drawn to people who also have that. Like I definitely feel that where I'm like, yeah, everyone I know. Um, and I think there's just a part that's like, I see that in other people. Mm-hmm. And so I'm very like, drawn to it or we end up talking about it. Um, I think the why, like my sort of like initial assumptions would be like, yeah, because women are connected to the land

Yeah.

And wanna do this more like creative reciprocal energy that we like, have had beat outta us by like a patriarchal system that's so much about colonizing and taking over. I mean like I grew up in the suburbs fully, like never rural was like going camping at a national park like that was about, and for my parents, like, they didn't even do that as kids.

They were like, this is the wild dream we have is like we're gonna go camping. Um, but I've since realized that even like my camping experience was very controlled and like international park and like very sterile probably in some ways. Um, but that felt very like revolutionary at the time and it was very cool.

We moved to the Pacific Northwest like when I was a kid. And so we got to see this kind of like move transition into like, oh, everyone here is like more into nature, into hiking and camping and that felt very cool. Um, but yeah, I think there's something about the like creative visionary energy that is like inherent.

In like the sacred feminine that Yeah, I just feel like we're creative, energetic people and like I see that my mom did that through like crafting at home, like making us go outside like as a kid, like for an hour. Which as it felt very, like, I was so mad about it. It's like so funny. Like my mom, I'm sure is like the irony that like, I became the farmer, right?

Because I was so, like, I just wanna read my book inside. Like, I don't wanna play, I don't wanna, I just wanna like be in my head like very and like, ew, it's so messy outside. And like, yeah. So again, that kind of like sterile experience, right? Um, and yeah, now I am like fully the one like doing manual labor, like for fun and like choosing to.

Do like hard things, um

mm-hmm.

That I'm sure was like instilled in me as a child, but I was very resistant to it as a kid. Again, like being locked outside for an hour was like traumatic. Um, and now it's like, oh yeah. Like that's what I desire, right? Yeah. Like, and to experience a more wild, natural setting.

Like I just feel very connected to it. I mean, that's part of why it, I realize now that like when I moved to Sumner where I lived and I lived on a quarter acre, so I had like, again, it was like more yard than like I had ever had and like mm-hmm. Um, I got to kind of like rewild. It is like how I see it now.

Like I got all this wildlife to come back and when I go back there now there's like 50 birds that are always there. Like it's very, like, it has its own ecosystem now. Um, and moving here, I was like, oh, that like didn't go away. Like no one, like got rid of it. It's still very present here. Um, yeah. And I think it just feels kind of like, oh, I'm like prepared for that now.

Like, I think I also feel like communally or collectively that like, I mean, with climate change, we are transitioning into challenging times in the natural world. Yeah. And I think like the skills of like working with the land are very relevant and will only become more relevant. And I try not to like have that from like a fear perspective.

Mm-hmm. Um, which is sometimes hard, but I, it also just, it like ignites the sort of like academic intellectual part of me is just like, oh, I just wanna like know how to do it all. I just wanna know Right. How to like. Make all my own food and like what if I was gonna be hunting and like, what? Like what if, what if, what if?

Right. That again, I felt so persistent to, or just it felt very like foreign and scary as a kid, or it felt like that's what other people did.

Mm-hmm. Um,

and now it's like, oh no, I fully believe in my ability to like learn how to do those things. Mm-hmm. And that's very fun. And I think like gardening like gave me a lot of confidence in that too, of like, oh, I can literally grow 10 foot plants from like a seed that I can barely see.

Um, just again, like that sort of like creative energy of like

mm-hmm

I can help cultivate this and then it'll like become this big thing that I almost could have never imagined. Yeah. Yeah.

So beautiful. I didn't even really think about the lineage of that. And I too grew up in the suburbs and my mom always tells this story of, we lived with my grandparents for a while after my parents split up.

And then when my mom bought a house, I mean, it was very much just like the suburbs, like 20, 30 minutes north of Seattle. But at the time before there was so many more housing, you know, developments that were built around us, there was a lot more trees and it felt like we were out in the country. And I, when we moved there, I asked my mom like, are we in the country?

Do we live out in the country? Um, so I totally. Resonate with that too, of not really loving being outside. My mom and my grandma were both big gardeners and I was always like, Ugh, I hate gardening. But I think now it comes back more to, I think it was always because it was about aesthetic. It was always because, you know, your lawn had to look nice and the garden beds had to look nice and they can't have any, uh, weeds and things in them.

And it wasn't about your relationship to the land, it was just because that's how it was supposed to be, so that everybody else thought that your yard looked nice.

Mm.

Um, and yeah, this year was my first year of trying to grow some vegetables and that feels way cooler. It's like I actually get to grow things that I can eat.

Um, yeah. So I feel like I could have you on for a whole nother podcast of like, how to rewild your land, because that's something I'm very interested in. And I like you, I feel like I need to know all the things, and yet I don't have time to learn all the things about how to rewild land. Um, but that is, uh, definitely a topic that I would love to dive into.

Um, I wanna focus though a little bit more on like you and all the offers that you have so that people can work with you if they want to. What, how do you usually have people come into your sphere of what you do? 'cause it, there are a lot of things that you do. So what are the things that you like to highlight most?

Or, or maybe just even like in this moment, what are the things that you're really enjoying about all the different projects and things that you do?

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's sort of, yeah, people come in in different ways depending on like what the offer is. Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm fairly active on Instagram.

That's where I hang out. That's my like chosen social media at this time. So that I would say is kind of where people find the more like, which part of me. Mm-hmm. Um, certainly my podcast now. Like people get to know me that way. Um, which is nice. And that has been very fun and again, has sort of allowed me to like deep dive into things that I think are fun to talk about and kind of like lead

Yeah.

Lead

the conversation. Um, because yeah, I don't know. I get annoyed about talking about Yeah. The news or like the system we're stuck in. Yeah. I don't know, like if it's like as an Aquarius or like, what about me? But I'm just like, this is boring. Can we just, like, what is the future we're imagining? Right?

Like, what is our utopia? Like that's, I'm much more interested in like those conversations. Mm-hmm. Um, because it's a lot of hard work to create that. And so I'm like, okay, but how are we gonna do it? Like, yeah. I don't wanna just talk about it. I wanna like do it. Yeah. Um, and like you said, right, it sort of takes like trial and error or learning or like, um, figuring out what works for you and like your land or things like that.

Um, yeah. What else do I wanna share? I mean, I'm very excited about my, like, tariff for transformation group. Mm-hmm. Thing I'm putting together because I did a whole two seasons, like one episode per major iconic card. Yeah. But even then I'm like 30 minutes per card. That's not enough. Um, so like, I think also like sort of.

The fun of embodying an archetype.

Mm-hmm.

As like a way of play and pleasure, like dressing up. That's a thing I did as a kid, right. I didn't play outside, but oh boy did I like dress up and play, make believe, and sometimes as a witch, but yeah, also just in like fun clothes. I like to practice a lot of like glamor magic or like mm-hmm.

Wearing things on certain days that affiliate with the days of the week and the gods that they're named after. Or like color magic things. Um, like very much bringing witchcraft like into my daily life. Um, and so getting to kind of like embody the fool for one week and then embody like this other archetype feels very fun and feels sort of like parts work when I think about it therapeutically.

Yeah. But yeah, I think I love deep diving like into anything that I'm interested in. So this is like one way for me to do that. Yeah. Um, and again, the podcast, getting to have a season and all about Definition and Harry Potter, which I was like, I don't, I don't know if people are interested, but like, I have a lot to say, so I'm gonna talk about it.

And then I went and presented, uh, a fantasy conference, um, like convention in St. Louis talking about tarot and Harry Potter and kind of all of the interwoven aspects of it. Um, 'cause I think like looking at the archetype of like the wounded healer mm-hmm. Um, comes up a lot, I would say. Right. For like a lot of therapists.

Yeah. I was gonna say. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think sex therapy as well, right? Mm-hmm. Like we encounter a lot of people that. Wounded clients, but also like in the therapeutic role as being like, I wanna be right, the difference, or I wanna give people education or tools or things to transmute trauma or just lack of education into empowerment.

Mm-hmm. Into finding pleasure in what works for you. Um, I don't know where I was going with that, but maybe I'll just stop there. But yeah, those are kind of the things I'm like most excited about right now. Um, I do have a lot of ideas and things I work on, so I'm like, stay tuned. You can join my newsletter, uh, if you wanna know what's going on next.

'cause I just sort of allow my intuition to like, bring things forward and be like, okay, I'm doing this. Like, yeah. Um. Yeah. Yeah. Like I enjoy doing my tarot meetup group and it'll probably look slightly different now that I've moved. But that's also just very fun to meet a lot of times, like people that are newly into tarot or like, I don't have anyone in my life that I talk about tarot with, but like I have all these questions, or yeah, I wanna like play with other decks.

I find that like playful aspect, very pleasurable also.

Mm-hmm.

Of like being able to deep dive it, but also be like, find what works for you, like do this or that. Yeah. It's definitely my therapeutic style too. So yeah. That gets interwoven in all my sort of like offers, I would say.

Yeah. Well I think being in the sacred feminine and I double more in Oracle cards, so I wanna dive more into like why tarot for you, but I wanted to highlight that.

I think that is. A big thing of learning to get out of your head. 'cause so many of us live pretty much from the neck up and leading from your heart. And that really is cultivated by going internally and developing that relationship to yourself and to your soul and to your own connection to the divine, whatever that means to you.

And like you said, getting these understandings of like, oh, like this is what would be interesting for me right now. This would be pleasurable for me right now. And then acting upon it. And so instead of thinking so much and getting into that place of like, oh, I have to, you know, take this course, I have to do all these things before I can get to this place, or I have to do it so perfectly that I never end up actually doing the thing 'cause I'm so afraid that I'm not gonna do it right.

We just really tune into what is going to serve me in this moment and then acting upon it. And I think that is something that is really needed in this world, is cultivating that intuition that like gut knowing and leading from our hearts. And it sounds like you definitely do that.

Yeah. It's definitely been a practice.

Mm-hmm. And I've like, I feel like I've bridged the gap between like what you're saying of like, I have the idea and then like I actually do it. Yeah. It's like getting shorter and shorter, which is very nice. But yeah, I used to be like, I have an idea and then like 18 months later Right. I like make the first step.

Yeah. And it's like, yeah, it takes a long time to like do anything. Um, and I've definitely seen that enacted, uh, also with like land and garden. Like we can get stuck in this like analysis paralysis or like, I need to have the perfect or mm-hmm. My has to look a certain way. I just feel like there's so many things that we actually like learn by doing that.

Probably also in the system of American education system is not highlighted. Right. There's a lot of like, learn intellectually, regurgitate, right? Forget like Right. The next day. Right. And then just like move on to the next curriculum where Yeah. There's like no integration. There's no, there's very little like kinesthetic learning except for when we're like very young.

Yeah. Um, and I think, yeah. Part of that like intuitive process is like knowing and honoring, like how do you actually learn, right. That like helps us figure so many more things out about like. How do I, yeah. What does it look like when I get a download from the universe? Like what is it do I care about when people are like, that's crazy.

Mm-hmm. Or like, you shouldn't do a podcast ever. You shouldn't go from zero podcast to five days a week. That's insane. How are you gonna do that? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm just gonna do it. Like it. That was the download I got. So like I'm going forth with that. Yeah. And worked out just fine. Right. It's not that it's easy, but I like it enough.

Right. It's like mm-hmm. To me, like a lot of things in my life right now are like, well, if it's fun enough, like I'll do it. Yeah. Um, and that like, sort of like, audacity has been leading my life for at least the last like year of just like, well, yeah. If it's like a 10 out of 10 on the interest, then like, I'm gonna try at least and see Yeah.

What happens. Yeah.

Well, this is kind of a whole other conversation too, and I wanna have somebody on this podcast to talk about ai, but I do think the rise of AI and the fact that we are not going to really need as humans so much to, like you said, regurgitate information because it's just readily available at our fingertips.

Or like robots are going to be taking care of that information for us, so we don't really need it. I think this is where humans need to develop more and just like you said, we've created a system in education that is much more about are you pleasing the teacher and Yeah, compliant. Yeah. And getting this holy grail grade that we put as more significant than people actually learning something.

It's like it doesn't matter. If you get an A on a test and forget it all the next day. It's just that you got the A on the test. Um, that definitely happened with me and like spelling tests. I was great at memorizing things and then as soon as you know, the test was over, then I would dump all that information 'cause it was like not necessary for me.

And I'm still like a terrible speller, but got all the A's. So that's all that matters. Yeah. Kinda

like, it's like it reinforces the wrong things. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. So this is definitely, and like you said, it takes time. This isn't just something I'm like, oh, go close your eyes and you'll be able to do this.

It's something that you have to cultivate over and over and over again of listening to yourself and listening to, you know, just the ideas and the desires that you have. I, one thing that I love in the spaces that I'm in right now. Is the idea that all of our desires are just coming up for us because they're already like destined for us, that we wouldn't want it unless it was somewhere in our future timeline and it was kind of calling to us already.

Yeah. And that is so helpful for me to know that when something pops into my head, it's not like, oh, that's stupid and I shouldn't act upon it because it's stupid. It's like, oh, there's something here that is calling to me and that I should think about and feel and then upon.

Yeah. Well, and I think it's so like, uh, threatening to the patriarchal system and that like, that fuels me.

That helps. Yes. Right. Where it's like, yeah, no, I can actually explain it. Yeah. Like. I don't really care if you've never experienced that, but like, I'm going with it. Yeah. I mean, I felt that about this land. Yeah. I did like a meditative process after we had looked at it and I was like, I don't know, I just feel like we're gonna get it and it's calling to me.

Mm-hmm. And like, and then like that day we got the offer on the house that was like, okay, we can make this work. Yeah. Um, but yeah, that sort of,

uh,

I don't know. It's very interesting, especially talking about tarot, because I do a lot of like trying to dispel that tarot is fortune telling, like I think it mm-hmm.

It can be, but I think that's very scary to people. And so I often talk about it a lot more as like, yeah, it's like self work, it's self growth. Like we're. Kind of reflecting, tarots, reflecting back what we maybe need to hear mm-hmm. Or things we already know, but kind of like reaffirm our intuitive sense.

Um, yeah. Even if they're gonna be like hard lessons or things that we have to know. But I'm also definitely becoming like the type of person where I'm like, yeah, this is gonna happen. And like, I don't really know how, but I think, like you said, right, there is like a sort of like affirmation, like mm-hmm.

There's something comforting about that Yeah. Of that, like you're saying. It's not just this like, crazy idea that came into my head and, um, I think like religion plays into this also mm-hmm. As to like what we think about those ideas that enter our head.

Yeah.

Um, as like, yeah, I had a client this week talk about demons and that like, that's what they were told as a kid.

Mm-hmm. Any of those thoughts are like demons. And I'm like, oh yeah, that didn't help. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, that there is this sort of, I don't know, I think like experiencing kind of like the wheel of the year and living this more like seasonal, which life it's also like, yeah, no, everything's like a circle.

Yes. Like we aren't, like, it might feel linear, but that, like you're saying that's sort of like, okay, maybe we're learning this now or this is coming up because we have to kind of do something in the future, or like

mm-hmm.

It's gonna come back around. Um, yeah. And I know for me as like someone that is, I'm like dabbled in anxiety of different kinds.

Like it does sort of like soothe that part of me. Yeah. To um, that like, yeah. Actually I don't really have control.

Mm-hmm.

And trying to enact control doesn't really work. Yeah. And it was a lot of effort that now that I don't put that in, it's so much easier to hear. Right. These intuitive whispers or things from the universe or the divine that I don't really have doubts about anymore.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and so like I said, I have dabbled more with Oracle cards and my understanding with Oracle cards are how I use them. I think it's similar of what you were saying of it's kind of like a portal between like myself or my soul and the divine. It's kind of like a way for me to read into that.

And I usually do just, you know, sometimes you can put a specific intention on, excuse me, the cards that you have or. I just kind of am like, whatever my soul wants to tell me today is what I'm open to hearing. And usually it's spot on. I mean, sometimes I'm like, uh, maybe my juice wasn't as potent today, but most of the time it's like spot on to what I am wrestling with in my life at that moment.

And it's just, it's crazy to me. I'm always like, how do people write this? Like, where did these come from? Yeah. Um, so what got you specifically into tarot and to weave it back into like the theme of this podcast, like how do you feel like that tarot specifically brings pleasure and joy, um, to you and to the people that you enjoy it with?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think specifically tarot, just 'cause that's like what I found first. Like I had a very like intuitive experience of walking by like a boutique in Seattle every day when I walked to work. And it was like a very nice, like handmade clothing, expensive boutique. And they had like one tarot deck and I just like walked by all the time.

And I would sometimes go in and I was just like, I don't, I don't know, like why? Like it felt very like, I dunno why I'm coming in here. Like I can't really afford these clothes and like, I don't, I like one time bought jewelry there that I like gave to a friend for like a birthday or something. And I just found this tarot deck that's like from a local person, which was probably why I was in there, um, that I was like, eventually was like, oh, I think like this is, this is the thing.

Um, that deck. And so some of it is just really because like, that's what I found. I grew up playing cards like my parents played ure and we played a lot of like different poker games or I learned how to shuffle when I was a kid. And my brother and I at a national park at the Redwoods National Park spent a whole week like learning how to bridge, shuffle.

Yes. Oh, that's so hard. We're like, I know, because we're kids and we're like, I'm determined like our parents can do it. Right. Our hands are tiny, but like, I will learn and that's like still honestly like how I shuffle tarot cards. Like that's definitely not what everyone does, but I'm like, yeah, I, I grew up with cards, so I think it felt familiar in that way to like, I'm like, now when I look about it, I'm like, yeah, I like needed some structure.

Like it was, felt a little too scary to go like. Non-structure. I mean, Oracle usually has a structure. It's just like not consistent between decks necessarily.

Yeah.

Um, the number of cards or like the style, um, or like reversals and things like that. Um, now I dabble like more in Oracle. I just got actually an Oracle deck at the Haunted Farmer's Market.

It's a run article with Goddesses Love. I'm very excited about it. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think it was some of that like learning to come away from like write the, I wanna get an A on the paper. I wanna like do everything Right. I think now that I, like, don't live that life as much, I'm like, yeah, Oracle, like I'm into this.

Mm-hmm. Um, but I wouldn't be surprised if at first like the structure of tarot was like, helpful to me. Yeah. Um, and to be able to, I have, I guess this is my 11th deck and I have a couple Oracle ones, but, um, she'd be able to have like. Across like skills that you can transfer the, the knowledge from one to another.

Mm-hmm. Um, but the way that I do tarot and have always done is just like very intuitive, like you're saying of like, the memorizing never worked for me. I got so many books or like courses about like how to do tarot, how to memorize, and it was just like, I couldn't, like it didn't work for me. Yeah. It wasn't until I started to just kind of like do it and talk about it and then occasionally read for other people that I got to a place where I was like, oh, I actually do know this information.

Mm-hmm. Like you're saying where it's more of this like, I actually learned it. Like I didn't just memorize it to regurgitate or like, it wasn't out of fear that I was gonna be wrong. Right. It was like, no, like this feels right. And that's definitely when I talk to people about tarot and. I'm in groups with like new tarot folks.

Like I think that's very important to the intuitive side, or at least that's what I'm interested in.

Yeah.

Um, and I think too, as like a therapist, I think I see tarot as like sometimes like, uh, this parallel experience to like what I think I do as a therapist, which is like reflect back or sort of like with helpful reframes or things.

Mm-hmm. Like what people are kind of already telling me. Yeah. But sometimes I don't feel ready to hear or like don't feel like it's true unless they hear it from a

professional. Mm-hmm.

But often to me it feels very similar of like, no, like, you know what to do, it's just hard and you don't wanna do it.

Yeah. I'm here to support you through that. And I think the tarot does that and. Um, too, but it is, I like that you can do it on your own, like mm-hmm. I practiced Tara by myself for years before I ever like

mm-hmm.

Talked about it with anyone or put it on my Instagram or anything, so, yeah. Yeah. It had to maybe similar to like, pleasure, I had to figure out what worked for me.

Mm-hmm.

Like on my own, separate from like the people pleasing part. Yeah. Part that would just kind of do whatever worked for other people. Right. And then once I figured that out, then I could kind of like talk about it. Explain it, like Yeah. Lead other people through it.

Yeah. Well, and I love that you're highlighting the process that it, you know, it was a process for you to develop this skill and get comfortable with it to the point where you even would share it with other people and talk about it and do readings for other people.

Um, and I think that's also something in our culture that we're so afraid, I think especially as women, to do something that we're not automatically good at from the beginning. And yeah, just even like I have a three-year-old son, none of us are good at anything from the beginning. Like we start out knowing nothing, and then somehow we learn to sit up, we learn to crawl, we learn to walk, we learn to talk.

We also learn all these other skills that we're afraid to do as adults as well. And I think it's beautiful that you gave yourself the space to just experience it for yourself and move through some of that, like, oh no, I, I would be too afraid to do this in front of somebody or do it with somebody if I didn't have this specific information in my mind at that moment.

Um. And get to a point where Yeah. It felt more comfortable for you.

Yeah. Well, and I really think that like the practice of gardening, which is a very externalized process mm-hmm. Like, helped me do that too.

Yeah.

It was like, yeah. I was learning by trial and error. I was watching people on YouTube do it and being like, okay, I guess I'll try it on my own.

Um, that it then became like this confidence of like, oh, I can do this in other places. Mm-hmm. I can build my own pond, which is the thing I did.

Yeah.

Because I was like, yeah, I, I could do that and did it all on my own. It was like, yeah. Turned out great. Like it, it definitely was a process, but mm-hmm. I feel like learning how to do that just had this like, great ripple effect into other parts of my life where, again.

Showing up or being seen. Mm-hmm. Doing things felt okay. And finally like a place where I could feel safe doing that, or at least like confident enough in myself that I could reflect back people's own projections or, or their judgments or like insecurities of self and just be like, nah, that's not about me.

That's, that's

for them. Yeah. Yeah.

I know we're getting close to an hour. Do you have time for a couple more questions? Yeah, yeah. Um, I was just curious, do you do tarot with therapy clients at all? Obviously if they are like open and willing to do it, not that you're shoving it down the throat, but is that something I started

to, yeah.

I, um, went to a therapist ter retreat last year and that sort of like finally kicked off my like. Okay. I know how to do this. Like ethically, clinically write notes for it. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, right now I have a client where we're doing it every session now, where we're, um, doing some kind of activity utilizing the tarot.

Um, I did feel like I had to adapt things, adapt to doing it, like via telehealth. Mm-hmm. Because obviously like clients kind of have to like, have their own deck or Yeah. It helps to have some familiarity. I put it in like my bio and stuff now as a therapist, um, to kind of like signal to people, like, I'm open to this.

Mm-hmm. Like, we can bring this in. I have clients that practice it on their own, but, um, it's still fairly recent to me that I'm like doing it actively with a client, but it's been very fun. I also, I guess I didn't talk about this earlier, but. I grew up like going to art museums and the, I love the art of like buying 78 pieces of art, right?

Mm-hmm. Like in a tarot deck and being able to support artists that way. So it's just very fun to see like, yeah. Archetypes and different forms of art through tarot and see like what a client picks out. We've done, like what is your ideal self that you wanna, like, project the world and like pulling cards based off of imagery alone.

And, um, it also, to me it feels a lot more like art therapy where it's like's Okay. Or acceptable for like both the therapist and the client to like do the activity. Yeah. I feel like I've only experienced that by doing like, art therapy where it's like, okay, like we're gonna both like draw some things and Right.

Not necessarily that the therapist is gonna like, share a whole lot about what they did, but the, it's like. Normalized too. So like, I will pull cards and then like, it's fun to be like, oh, we pulled the same ones. Like, that's interesting. Yeah. Or, um, or again, like what symbols stand out to me as therapists that maybe they didn't pick up on, or what stands out to them.

Um, it's been very fun to do and again, as someone that like grew up feeling like I learned that like right intellectualism and like academia and finding facts from a book are like the way mm-hmm. That it's like, no, we can just like go off vibes and imagery and like, we don't, like, words can be helpful but also like hinder a lot of things.

Yeah. Um, and a lot of my clients are anxious Overthinkers. Yes. Which I relate to. And so it's like, it's a very fun experience to be like, let's do something different in session, let's. Find imagery and then go off of that.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like you and I are a kin souls. I feel like everything you're bringing up from childhood, I'm like, yes, I experienced that too.

So fun. Um, okay, I want to pivot. Well, it's pretty big pivot, but I wanted you to talk a little bit about, as a business owner, you put in your, um, questions that I had you answer that you take a really significant time off of work a year and you said like 12 weeks off the year. Um, and that's something that I'm still aspiring to and working on for myself.

I only work three days a week now, mostly because I'm a mom and I help take care of my son on Mondays and Fridays. But it's definitely something that I've yet to really master as a business owner. So. Turning toward like how do we do business differently in this world? And being an entrepreneur, how has that worked for you and how do you do that in maybe even just talking broadly, like what has it meant for you to create a business that is more aligned with what you need?

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm trying to think about like what angle I wanna speak about it from first, but know, I mean you really, it like these questions here. Yeah. Well and it's kind of like what came first, like a very like chicken or egg kind of thing because part of it was just like one year I recognized that like, oh, I'm kind of doing this and I like want that.

And so putting it out there like 12 weeks because I'm like, this is not the first time I've been asked. Like I've done it in other like networking or other things. Yeah. Where um. Yeah. It's like as an American, it feels audacious. Like to be like, what? Yes. Three months. Right? Like, and to me, I don't, it's not like I take a week, a month or like I know people that do that.

That's probably part of where I got the audacity from. Yeah. But I had a business coach that, I mean she still does I'm sure, but takes the last week off of every month. And that, that was like built into her coaching offer of like, we see each other once a week for three weeks and then the last week is an integration week.

Mm-hmm. As we talked about. Not a thing that we allow for very much in our culture. Yeah. Um, mine is a little more like I tell clients ahead of time. Often it's around holidays or like more in summer. Um, but yeah, like sometimes like part of it has just been like saying it like, helps me do it. Um, yeah. Part of it was recognizing that like, again, in my utopia, like that would be.

A thing everyone could do. Yes. And so same here. Trying to be like, well, let me like model that. Um, I've studied abroad in high school I was an exchange student, so I got to like live in another culture. I lived in Ecuador and see that people do life very differently. Yep. And like, everything's just fine.

Like a lot of things were like kind of shaken out of, or like just what I thought was normal or stuff was just like shown to me that like maybe, but it doesn't have to be that way. Mm-hmm. That was certainly very helpful with that. And I studied abroad in college and I lived in Austria and it was like, yeah, eight weeks is like minimum.

Yeah. Like as a 16-year-old apprentice, you get eight weeks. Like they're like, you Americans are crazy. So part of it was being like, yeah. Like there are other way people are doing this. Yes. And like have better work life balance. It's hard with our current healthcare system, it's so hard. Understand that.

Yeah.

Um, and that's like a big part of it, right? Healthcare totally is tied to our jobs. If you get fired or if you dare to take vacation at your job that they give you like, um, that, you know, you're, that might be in the back of your head Right. As a reason. Um, yeah. Or even switching jobs that Oh yeah. A lot of jobs don't even get like, care for like three

between It's insane.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, from there I'm like, I could go down the whole like,

yeah.

Chronic illness journey and dealing with American system healthcare and how like, I just am like insurance is just like not helpful for most people. Doesn't super well. Um, it's like good for crisis scenarios. Uh, and beyond that I'm like, what are we paying for?

Yep. Um, and I definitely see that as a therapist. Um, where was the other part? I wanted to go, uh, abroad. Oh. I guess the other part was just like, what is the point of working for myself if like, I did like the very, I would say stereotypical, which is like, fuck the system. I'm not doing that. I'm not going into community mental health.

And then it was like, I'm gonna do my own thing and that it's gonna be so great and like office, I'm gonna do everything right. Look at me, go. And then, right. It's like inevitably you like end up recreating a nine to five and you're like, what am I? Yeah. Right. And you're like, wait, I thought the whole, like, the whole reason I did this was so I didn't have to like ask for vacation time and.

The entrepreneur joke of like, right, I used to work nine to five and now I work like 24 7. Um, so some of it too was like, okay, let me at least be intentional about, right? Like kind of that, like I'm saying to myself that I'm gonna take 12 weeks a year and therefore like I'm going to do it and other people will help hold me accountable.

And when I put it in my paperwork, clients will see it and if they have questions, they'll ask about it. But, um, yeah, I think a lot of it was just, yeah, recognizing what I actually needed. And the other thing is like, I take Wednesdays off from work. Like I try not to do anything. Definitely don't see any clients.

Occasionally I will do like a more fun, like a work thing, like a training or like, like something that might be mildly work related, but it has to feel like worth it. Um, because yeah, with a chronic illness it was like, I need the recovery day in the middle of my week.

Yeah.

Um, and in grad school we had Wednesdays off from internship and we only had class those days and like class was a lot, but it sort of set this precedent.

Um, and I used to go swimming with a lot of my grad school friends on Wednesdays and so it sort of became this like fun in the middle of the week. And so that, like you're saying, right, you work three days a week. Like I generally work four days a week and like I have done like three at times. Um, but the Wednesdays off really helps me Yeah.

To, 'cause it's kind of like, well, I can schedule appointments that day. I can write rest all day if I need to. Yeah. As someone that's like a DHD and autistic, I can like be bop around all day and like not, I love using that phrase, but with clients. But I love it too. I can just like. Do whatever my little brain wants to do.

Yeah. And like bake zucchini bread and like be in the garden and like totally disregard time. And that's also very like, helpful for me. Um, so yeah, I think a lot of it's just like trying to be intentional about it. Yeah. And actually honor like what I need for sure.

Um, yeah. Yeah. And you've found that financially it just works because it's already in your schedule and there's no like negotiating for it.

It's just there.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like kind of funny 'cause even before I used to just like say 12 weeks, I would like look at my calendar and I would like sort of be like, oh, I kind of end up. Doing that. Mm-hmm. Um, I still, because I like take off on Wednesdays, I'll often like travel on a Wednesday, so I'll do like a Wednesday to Wednesday, which is nice for flying because it's cheaper.

Yeah. Um, and then like sometimes it does mean that like I shove all my end of the week clients to the front on one week, and then I shove all my beginning of the week clients to the end on the next week. So like Right. Essentially I am working both weeks, but I'm not working like all of the days. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it has just, I felt like before it felt like I was very at the mercy of other people's schedules.

For sure. For sure. I think especially like summer holidays. Yeah. Like, I don't know, having worked in like corporate America, I'm like, yeah, no one like works the two days before Christmas. Like everyone's just like sitting there like, like send an email like, um, where I'm like, it just felt. Yeah. Inauthentic to like, pretend in that way where I was like, okay, well again, if I, if I have my utopia, like let me like not pretend, let me either like be fully on or fully off.

Mm-hmm. And I have had to like, as a, sometimes black and white thinker have had to like, play with that a little bit of like, do I wanna work when I'm out of town? Yeah. I don't do it often, or at least I don't see clients often when I do it, but occasionally it does feel worth it. Um, when I have weekly clients and I'm like, yeah, I can do that.

Mm-hmm. And, but yeah, I felt like I, yeah, I think it has just sort of helped me from a boundaried perspective and I basically never have issues with it from a client perspective. It's more like I have to hold it. Right. I have to be okay with it. Right. I have to say it. Um, and. Yeah, it does. I mean, my boyfriend also works from home and now like for a startup, so we both have a lot of like autonomy with our schedules and like that is very nice.

Mm-hmm. A lot of the time. And also it's like, oh no, like I am the only one holding my own boundaries. Like sometimes it's like it's own fun shadow work of like, okay, if there's no one around, like watching, like do I actually like hold to my own things that I know are good for me? Right. Or do I kind of like cave in or you know, like sometimes the comedy or people please or Yeah.

Kind of fall back into old habits and mm-hmm. I try to be gentle with myself when that happens, but

Yeah.

Um,

yeah. Yeah, that's hard. I mean, works out. Obviously it's not easy to create this if you are in corporate America. Don't have the leisure of creating that for yourself, but just as you were saying, so many entrepreneurs think that they're going to create, you know, a life or a business that is better for them.

And yet all we know is what we have done so far and end up recreating corporate American sometimes even worth, right?

Because like at least corporate America has HR and like, um, has policies and like ethical ramifications if they make you work all the time. Yeah.

  Yeah. So, yeah, I'm curious. I know I answered the question about land earlier and like why we think this is like a dream for folks, but Yeah. What I'm curious for you, like what feels resonant or important about it? What, what is your dream around it? I think I have a similar dream as you that I also want to buy some land.

Um, I recently came across on YouTube. I feel like the divine often talks to me through the different mediums that I tend to be on, like YouTube. Instagram sometimes, but I've randomly like find videos that I'm like, this, this is for me, this was meant for me. Which people could also say is just the algorithm.

But when it's new stuff that I've never touched before, I'm like maybe, um, I came across a video that was about geo ships, and I don't wanna make this all about geo ships, but they're essentially like this dome. Structure that this company in California is creating and is created out of complete like earth-based material, but it's really strong and it's almo.

They akin it to like bone, that it's almost kind of like the same materials that we have in our bones. Um. It's supposed to be completely weather and like natural disaster proof. It, it can withstand earthquakes and hurricanes and forest fires and all of these things, which is amazing. Um, and it's created in a dome shape.

So it's also supposed to like mirror, um, the earth and be more. Entwined with the cycles of the earth and because of the dome shape, because of the material. The people that were in, I, I have not been in one so I don't know, but the people that were being interviewed and that walked into one talked about how there's like a resonance within them and they're actually like, can be really healing that the energy.

That we feel in our bodies with them can be more like inline and harmonious, which is so cool. And they're currently kind of in the beginning manufacturing stages, but they're hoping to create communities around the country and around the globe. Um, so I have a dream of pieing land. And having geo ships on my land.

Um, this dream originally started with my husband and I, we both come from, um, two divorced parents, or we each have divorced parents, so we each have like two sets of parents on both of our sides. And I'm an only child. My husband's the oldest of him and his sister, and so we both are kind of going to be the caregivers of aging parents.

Um, so I had the idea of like having originally like an A DU Village mm-hmm. Where we can have like elderly parents live if they didn't wanna live on their own. But then I could also transition to like our son being able to live like beyond our household, but still on our land if he wanted to, when he gets older or more kiddos, if we end up having another kiddo.

Um. Also, I wanna hold retreats on my land in the future. So it could be like housing for retreats or really like anyone that needed housing if they needed to in the community. Um, so that's kind of my, where my dream started. And now with the geo ships, I'm kind of like, I want like a temple of my own that I can do all my work in and hold retreats and hold circles and stuff like that.

Um, with some other like outbuildings where people could live and then having our own home, that is moderate. I, I've just never been somebody that wants to like, live in a mansion. That's not been something that I feel like I need. It's like I want a lot of wealth to regenerate through community and to give back and like help.

Birth, some of these new ideas that we are all collectively having, but like having a lot of things is not really what I want, but I want like a comfortable home, like two to three bedroom, two bathroom type situation. Um, and so these are really cool. So I have that vision. I have a vision of also like not having like a huge farm, but just having some area that we grow.

A garden, grow vegetables and all of that and like share with our community. Um, I mentioned that I live in a very suburban house right now. Um, although I will say our community is getting to be more communal and I really like with a little, having so many families around and we have a lot of park space that kids come and play and so that's really fun.

But I do live in a very suburban community right now. Um, but the previous owners already had built some raised beds in our backyard, and so this was the first year that I was like, we are doing a garden because it's part of the resistance and we're all gonna do like resistance gardens. That was a big thing in the spring.

Um. It's been wonderful and my child has loved it. He goes out in the garden every day. He is so proud of all the things. He picks things before they're really ripe though. But yeah, he is all about it. He is like, we grew strawberries. Those are his favorite things. It's just been so great to have him. Like love doing something that's outside, love cultivating the earth in some way.

I mean, he didn't like do a whole lot of actually putting things in the ground, but he loves receiving from the, yeah, from the earth. Um, and just to get him excited about that I think is so fun. So I have a dream of that continuing to grow over time and that he can learn how to do that himself, um, as we learn how to do it.

So I have a lot of visions around that. And I do think that, again, I, I'm, so you said you love to dive deep into things. I also love to dive deep into things. I am on an AI journey right now. I'm really like trying to discover this, you know, and there's no like hard and fast. Answer to any of it, but there's so many different opinions on what is going to happen with ai and I just think it's fascinating and also kind of on the train of how you said like tarot can sometimes be used to tell the future.

I really do think that we are getting downloads right now of where the future is going through the skills that we are learning. Um, I do think that community is going to be huge in the future. It's really interesting because I do think that a lot of the things that we're being like told through our knowing to cultivate again are like ancient things.

Yeah. But then we're also gonna have like new technologies that we're playing with. So it's kind of this like really old, with a really new converging, which I think is really interesting. Um, but I think community is gonna be really important and I think people are wanting to. Go on land, not because they want to hoard land like it has been done in, you know, conquer land.

But to start to create community again and to start to build communities around their land and like bring people onto their land. And so I think that is something that is kind of coming through for a lot of people. Definitely like the food system we all know sucks. And that's another thing that other countries can be like, what the heck America are you doing?

Yeah. Um, so I think just us like learning how to cultivate the land in that way, but also just having like a more, like you said, symbiotic relationship to land and to wildlife and. Rewilding that in all of us and seeing ourselves as part of the ecosystem again instead of like above it where we can just like take and take and take and not give anything back to the earth, um, I think is probably part of that dream for a lot of people.

Um, um, and yeah, I just, I think it kind of comes down to I what you said too about. Um, how witches or, you know, women that were perceived as witches, they weren't actually like witches, they were just like herbalists and Yeah. People that like knew healing healers that lived on the land, um, that they were seen as, you know, too, too scary for the patriarchy 'cause they weren't gonna be able to be controlled and so they were called witches and then burned.

Um, it's interesting that you said that, you know, that's kind of where they tended to live was on the fringe of society. So I wonder if that's a lot of this like rising feminine, wanting to return to our roots and like cultivate the land back to what it was originally supposed to be, instead of just this like earth that has nothing to it, that our soil is so.

It, it doesn't have any nutrients in it. And we've totally stripped everything from our land and have decided that, you know, we get to just take whatever we want again without really giving anything back. Um, so I just, I think it's very interesting. Kind of like you said, how when you do tarot with your.

Clients and you pick the same card. I just think a lot of people in this space tend to have the same dreams or the same downloads at the same time. Um, even to like media, if anyone is a fan of K-pop, demon hunters. That was like a phenomenon this year. And I think every year kind of has a phenomena like that or something.

Pop culture that happens because we're all collectively feeling like this is where we're at in this time. Yeah. And this is what we need in this time. So I like kind of looking at things like that of if we're all collectively having a similar idea about something in this time, um, what does that mean moving forward?

Um, so yeah, I just think it's really interesting that so many of us really want to go live on the land and create community on the land and come back to some of these things that just like you said, like I would've never thought that I would want to do that. There's still part of me that like is like living in the woods.

Is living in the woods. Like I still like. I'm gonna have to get used to seeing some things that I don't typically like seeing, like snakes and things that I am still kind of afraid of. Um, it's not all fun and games, like you actually have to learn how to, you know, be a little bit of a survivalist. Not entirely if you're like buying land that you know is on the corner of a busy road.

Um, you know, there's something there that is a little bit different than just living in a suburban house. So, um, yeah, I have to remind myself of that sometimes. But I do like, I, since I have found sacred feminine practices, I have re-found a love for nature that I've never had before. I love walking in the woods.

Um, that's something that I try to do as much as I possibly can, and I've gotten my. Kiddo to start really loving it too. And just this weekend we had like two great adventures in the woods together. Um, and so I, yeah, I wanna, I wanna live among the trees and near water and near the things that bring me peace.

And I also just love, like trees have been there forever. I mean, yeah. Like they're very, they're very wise. Yeah. Like they have a lot to show. Yeah. Yeah. They're so wise and a lot of, you know, giant tall trees. I'm, I definitely don't know enough about trees to know like how long they've been here, but a lot of 'em have been here for, you know, at least a couple hundred years or so.

Yeah. And so that gives me comfort too, that I'm like, especially in this tumultuous time in life, um. To know that something so old still exists and is still here, and, um, you know, as long as we protect them, hopefully, like they will still be there. It feels very much like a constant in a very chaotic world.

Um, so I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it sort of like forces, like thinking on a macro level. Yeah. And a micro, like being in nature because you see the seasons or you see like Yeah. A flies life cycle or whatever. Yeah. Like things that are, you know, like much shorter than our human like lifetime. And then trees, which have, like you said, I mean around here.

Yeah. There are hundreds of year old trees. Yeah. Um. That there's something about that. I also feel like the sort of like living on the land, farm life, it's like just more fully encompasses like the actual experience, which is like death and grief. Mm-hmm. And like decay and that, like those things feed the soil or like feed new growth.

Yeah. Um. And yeah, it's like, it's hard when it's like cute animals or like I've had in our, even in our old yard, many a dead bunny in our yard. No, no. Which is very hard. And it felt so strange to like work online and in my little like cubicle bubble in my house and then like go outside and be like, oh God, I have to like, yeah.

Think about right. Like this existence of the small creature and. How my yard may or may not have contributed or just kind of different things. But I feel like that just, it really, it's like that's actually what life is. Mm-hmm. And we sort of, again, I feel like talked earlier about the like pretending that like we just kind of like pretend a lot of the time that like, no, there's no death.

Like we're not afraid of that. It's fine, it's. Um, and I think, yeah, a lot of our current systems also like to pretend in that way. Yeah. And yeah, it sort of just, yeah, it's like a more grounded experience. But like you said, it's like it's not easy. Mm-hmm. But, and like, we didn't become therapists 'cause it was easy.

Uh, it's like, no, I wanted to be able to hold, like Yeah. The whole human experience. Have Yeah. Ways to talk about that. Mm-hmm. Um, that, yeah, it just feels more real. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. I, I just think things are going to change pretty rapidly in the next, like, handful of years, and it just seems to be the calling that a lot of people have.

Um, I do, I know back to AI for a second. I do think that there is a pretty big consensus beyond, or with all the people that I've listened to around ai, that AI is gonna take a lot of jobs, but it's what is the aftermath of that that people have differing opinions on? And I do think that some of these things, again, coming back to pleasure.

It's like we're gonna have to know what we like to do because I think a lot of people, it's not like people aren't gonna be working in the same way that they are now. I don't know if everybody's just not gonna be working or if like a lot of people won't be working, but then some people may be like you and I that are like, we're super creative and we still wanna like do something or gonna be working somehow some way.

I don't know. But I do think that in general, I think humans are gonna have a lot more free time than they ever have. And some people think that that's gonna be a huge like crisis in our world because so many of us have our value tied up in what we do in our job. And I do think that that's true, that I do think especially a lot of men are going to have yeah, a like crisis of identity around that.

And I think that's why a lot of the tech bros are like, everything is gonna be, you know, our world is going to end. Um, but I think on the sacred feminine side, it's like, no, this is an opportunity for us to actually like, be humans. Yeah. From kind of like, let's leave the robot into the robots and start treating humans as humans again.

And we get to actually cultivate the things that bring us pleasure again and live into those things we get to. Work on the land. We get to like play with our children and laugh. We get to, you know, go bike riding. We get to like play that sport that we want to just for fun. We get to like learn a musical instrument just because we want to.

Um, there's like so many things that we could use that time for to just create that I think is gonna be really cool. And I don't really know how, like, land is part of that equation, but I do think that, again, a lot of us that want land want to bring community on our land. Yeah. And I think we're like trying to shepherd people of like, it's gonna be okay.

It's gonna be okay. Like, come hang out with me. I'll, I'll find something for you to do. And so I, yeah. I wonder about what that future is going to look like when, when we have more time. Because I'm, I'm actually totally here for it. I'm like, let's not have to work. I would love that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like there's the both hand of like, yeah, it's gonna be a crisis for a lot of people.

Yeah. I just, my parents recently retired and I'm like, just that experience, right? It's like, is Yeah. You just, it's like, oh, I don't have to wake up, but at the same time every day. Yes. Like, what time do I wanna wake up? Right. And it's like this whole like. Existential crisis of like, what kind of person am I without?

Right. The job structure. Totally. Um, and yeah, and I think like a lot of times it's like, yeah, the, your own values like come into more clarity when sort of like. The external fluff is like removed. Yeah. Um, also I'm like, yeah, I want more, like, like you said, women creative people that like wanna have community to own land.

Like the please. Yes. Because a lot of land, the majority of land is owned by men. Right. And large corporations also. Um, and yeah, I'm like. Let's, yeah, let's see. Like what it would be like and like how people tree land differently. Mm-hmm. When it's this like reciprocal relationship. Absolutely. Because yeah, I'm like, there's just so much short term thinking that I'm like, what are we doing?

Like, like you haven't thought about, and I don't know if it's like, because yeah, women are. Literally ing new people, but like there is this more like generational concern. Mm-hmm. Or like thought process. Yeah. But yeah, I just get into like, okay, but like, what's the plan? Right? Like we don't, there's no plan for climate change right now.

Like, it's just like hope and like try to see what happens. Mm-hmm. Uh, that feels very. Yeah, like again, it's like the like pretending part where I'm like, yeah, we're just pretending that like we're not on this sort of inevitable trajectory. Totally. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That's not a fun place to end it though.

Well, I think a good place to end would be. How can people find you or what are the things that you wanna highlight about your work? And knowing that, again, I think I did not really realize when I invited you on this podcast, how much you really embody a lot of the things that I am wanting to, wanting help people understand about weaving pleasure back into the world.

to perfect as you can get in: 2025

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the two big things, my website, camille saunders.com, like you can find all info there. I upload all the information for every podcast. If you ever wanna see what cards I pull every episode. Um, and I pretty much have every episode cataloged on there. I just recorded my 180 second episode, so Wow, there's a lot there.

So if you wanna get to know me, uh, listen to podcast Everyday Tarot. You can find it anywhere again, if you want. Uh, you can find it on my website. But, um, those are definitely like. The easiest places. I'm Professional Witch on Instagram, if you wanna see. Yeah, podcast stuff. More garden content, everyday things.

Um, you can join my newsletter on my website, which again, kind of like will have all my up to date offers. Um, and I am still taking people for my tariff for transformation course. We kick off at the end of September. We're doing 12 weeks of calls and deep diving into tarot and how to use it as a way for transformation.

Um, which I do feel like a lot of people are being called to right now in transition. So, yeah. Yeah. So, cool. Well, thank you so much for being here. I have loved talking to you, and I'm also going to be on Camille's podcast on Thursday, or we're gonna record on Thursday. Yeah. Yeah. So it's excited to have you.

You can find us at both places. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much again, Camille, and I will see you soon. Okay. Thanks for having me. Of course.